So... issues. So many issues. It's never worked since the site has opened, no matter how many ways we've tried to implement fixes.

PROBLEMS
1. Too slow for new players
2. Too tedious for current members
3. Repetitive
4. Limiting
5. Hard to keep that in your character history
6. Realistically how often would your character troll the Threshold? Probably not often....


NECESSARY EVILS
1. Characters need an IC way to LEARN about Helovia
2. Characters need to KNOW someone to feel grounded in a space (most players struggle with wandering)
3. Herds need a way to recruit new members


Please help us ;-;

I have a hard time deciding myself, but to add to the list.

NECESSARY EVIL
-Sometimes it helps to assure players are serious about committing to Helovia.

Maybe have the Threshold be mandatory for first time characters. That way, anyone who is new will get into the "groove" of Helovia. Then, for all of their other characters, it can be optional. So, they can go in unclaimed through the Threshold, or start as an outcast who wanders in for all characters after their first.

By doing this, you can make sure that people when they first start out can get situated, but then for their other characters, they get the perk of "not having to do it" if they do not want to. Assuming the first time around they followed all the rules and such.

Possible solutions:

- Remove the 'no posts elsewhere until you are done in Threshold' limiter?

Personally I like arriving in the Threshold because there are surprisingly many ways in which you can do that. Run in like a mad person, sneak all stealthy like, fall from the sky, strut like you own the place etc. It's an easy way to get acquainted with the place and a surefire way to get recruited if that is what you want.

On the plus side it is also a great place to try out writing styles and get acquainted with your new baby - we all know it's not always an easy thing to do.

My problem with Threshold is that I cannot post anywhere else until that thread is finished, or the character at least IC'ly have accepted an offer. It forces those threads that potentially could be really interesting into becoming short and rushed and a chore rather than the pleasure it should be.

There is already a character application for complete newcomers. Is that not enough to ensure that newcomers know the rules and the way the site works? If, instead of 'Unclaimed', new characters were automatically made Outcasts there would be no need to keep tabs on and update ranks.

It would require more trust in those who join from our part, and it would place more responsibility on the newcomers, but as we already have a 16+ age rule on the site I think it's alright to ask of players joining with 'outsider characters' that they keep their first post to the Threshold.


- Allow people to join characters as Natives?

It would remove the need for the Threshold as they already would be up to date with at least the major turns of events.

If I remember correctly many have said in earlier discussions that they consider the herds to be much larger than just our played characters, thus a new character could potentially be the offspring of NPC's that were around all along, just never stood out or did anything that would make them noticed. Outcasts or 'those who stayed' after invasions, etc.

If, as I suggested above, any new character joins as an Outcast it would be possible to start writing a Native character in any unclaimed territory. Maybe they could be asked to fill in a more in depths Application to make sure they have read some of the lore and know about the Gods, Herds and so on, and then be left with the freedom to decide where they want to begin.

(04-08-2015, 08:41 PM)Cathun Wrote: - Allow people to join characters as Natives?

It would remove the need for the Threshold as they already would be up to date with at least the major turns of events.

If I remember correctly many have said in earlier discussions that they consider the herds to be much larger than just our played characters, thus a new character could potentially be the offspring of NPC's that were around all along, just never stood out or did anything that would make them noticed. Outcasts or 'those who stayed' after invasions, etc.

If, as I suggested above, any new character joins as an Outcast it would be possible to start writing a Native character in any unclaimed territory. Maybe they could be asked to fill in a more in depths Application to make sure they have read some of the lore and know about the Gods, Herds and so on, and then be left with the freedom to decide where they want to begin.

^ Seconded.

Hm.. Personally, I like the Threshold, and when I was a herd leader I enjoyed going there and picking people up. It's a great way to meet new characters, and I always found the "welcoming" threads in the home land more bothersome tbh :B
But it's nearly 2 years since I last was a recruiter so things might have changed since!

The idea of the Threshold being optional for secondary characters is interesting.

What about a hybrid of IC/OOC herd joining? It's an example from RoW, really, where they have OOC pack joining because it got kind of tedious at some point with all these loners falling on your borders looking to join/needing to have an IC thread where someone invited you.
Their system works that they have a board for OOC joining and a thread with a post prompt for each pack, and the character looking to join posts their own thread with the pack name in the title, and a full-fledged post responding to the prompt (the prompt is normally something like you come upon the borders and one of the leaders show up and ask you what you can offer the pack in terms of loyalty and skill). Then either of the leaders decide what to do, and either just post "Ok you're in ~" or some shorter IC-type reply. And then you're accepted and can go have fun.

However, I've always been fond of "recruiting ground" type areas, because some of the most marvelous things have come from when my characters have been presented with multiple allegiance choices and then made their picks. So instead of having a mandatory Threshold, maybe have an open "recruiting ground" where a character can go if they want to be recruited someplace? Maybe in tandem with the OOC/IC hybrid joining for those who already know where they want to go?
^Doutaini had something that like this, an open recruiting/claiming ground and another one where you requested to join a specific element.

The recruiting grounds wouldn't be restricted to new characters. Any old geezer (cough Mau) who wanted someone to convince him into having a home could go there. C:

I have to say, I hardly use it, and ironically, when I go to use it, I get beaten to it. But. I do enjoy the threshold... However I agree with Neo. So, I second what Neo is saying :)

I agree that having a recruiting area is good. When you don't know where you want your character to go, or are unfamiliar with the RPG, it's nice to have different options show up to vie for you. That being said, it's hard to sit there and make sure you get through the whole thread before posting elsewhere. That just happened with Diesel's thread... we cut it short because I wanted to move him out.

So perhaps it would be nice to have a place where characters can go to be like HEY PICK ME UP... but not mandatory. You're automatically an outcast until you go to a herd and request to join, or get picked up in a recruiting place.

I like the idea that Neo suggested about the hybrid IC/OOC welcoming type thing. That would make the tedious process of welcoming posts (which is more of a technicality than a necessity) so much eaaaasier and nicer.

I second Klare's idea that the Threshold should be optional for secondary characters, so that you're sure new players actually are committed to Helovia and is willing to spend the time and effort of writing a post. I'm afraid that if the Threshold cease to exist there will be a lot of players who will simply make a character and never play it later on.

Maybe we could have NPC people that greet new members in the threshold? That way anyone with time can do it, they could learn ICly, they wouldn't feel pressured to pick a herd right off,They could get it all done in two or three posts. Maybe make it a grumpy forest elf that "Guards the entrance to Helovia." "Yo, four herds, magic, companions, racists, bad-asses, Gods, blah blah blah. Oh and don't die!" Heck, we could even have a first post deal written out that highlights everything they need to know, which could be updated with changes. Or if they really want a horse from a herd/herds to come they could make that specific like it is now?

I like the idea of only making it mandatory for newcomers, then for sure we could use a simple pre-written IC Helovia intro for people that are making new characters but know the ropes. Like I said, that way they get IC knowledge, as well as recognition from the site. Over all, I'm just elaborating what Neo said lol. I agree that it's important for the herds to be able to recruit and meet potential members before they show up at the borders, but it can be a pain waiting for people to join a threshold thread, not to mention disheartening.

I am not a fan of the Threshold system, however it is a necessary evil.

Perhaps, to keep all parties happy, we could develop a sort of hybrid system.

The reason I don't support having everyone able to explore all the boards as soon as they create an account is because the Threshold is like the second part to one's application process - it helps give us an idea as to whether the player and/or character is going to work in the Helovian world.
-> I don't -mind- the idea of only restricting a player's first character to being 'Unclaimed' and then subsequent characters being able to choose however I feel that the character should still be posting first in a land that is on the borders of Helovia (eg, washed up on the beach of the Endless Blue, wandering in the Deep Forest, etc).


Now, players have the ability to note which herd they would like to be approached by (if they have an idea of where they want to go) - with this system in mind, if the thread has been waiting for more than 2 days unanswered (as in, zero replies), we could generate a NPC who could direct the character to the general area of that herd - people are more likely to reply in their own herdlands or borderlands, yeah?
So, for example, an NPC would direct a character wanting to join the Basin (but no-one in the Basin has had a chance to reply) to the North, towards the Frostbreath Steppe. Or, for the Falls, to the Meadow. For the Edge, to the Grove. For the Throat, to the Heart Caves.
These would be short, simple NPC's that would only take one or two posts to help get people moving on through the Threshold, into an Outcast rank and talking to the herds they are interested in. And, it would only come into play when it was needed, ie, when everyone is busy and swamped with work. They would be easy to do, because the NPC/RE could post the same reply (adjusted to different herds as needed) to multiple characters.
As well as another NPC for those wanting to simply become Outcasts.
The question then arises of how much information do these NPC's give. Obviously we can't give away herd specific information without actually being a part of that herd, so maybe we could all decide on what information we want the "general outcast pool" of characters to know - herd's rough location (north, south, east, west?), herd names, leader names?

Just some food for thought :)

I'll start out by saying I don't really mind the threshold. But that said, I understand that from an IC perspective it isn't the most realistic that everyone is found there first. The idea of NPC introductory characters there is also cool, and I really like the "join as a native" one.

This wouldn't get rid of the threshold but could organize it:
What about an ambassador/recruiter-type rank in herds? Leave the threshold where it is for people who are undecided about where to go, but if they know where they want to be then let people post in herdlands, tagging one of the designated ambassadors who would then give them the low down.

Ambassadors could also be official threshold trollers, and this would make it easier to give some characters permission to accept into the herd, based on their ranks.


Alternately:
I don't know if this could be coded but we have some geniuses on here, so. What about allowing people to post anywhere, but only giving permission to post one IC thread until approved by an administrator (in theory, after that first introductory thread ends.) That way it's more realistic if people are arriving in different areas. Obviously you can't get into Helovia without going through the threshold really, but Pegs might fly over it and others might gallop through it or go through at night when nobody's around, and just statistically run into no one. It would be more realistic for people to go wherever because that's where they'd get discovered by actual herd members or outcast band.

People could then include links to their first threads, wherever they are, in their applications so if people are looking to recruit they can go through the applications and find them there instead of looking through the threshold. Plus, then recruiters are always looking at the basics of that character before deciding to jump in a thread and recruit, which could increase efficiency some.

Just gonna hop in here again, this might be disjointed or an abomination idea in the sense that it takes a bit of everything and stitches together to form this horrid, putrid monster.

So, first things first: Rogues can post to the Threshold, as well as either of the four herdlands, if they know where they want to go.

Second, after your first IC post, you are automatically made Outcast. There's a system built in to MyBB that can achieve this; criteria is "equal or greater to" 1 post, original user group being rogue, target group being Outcast. This task runs every 20 minutes per default.

This means that you have to pass into Helovia either via the Threshold, and stay there and be recruited/have a nice IC thread, or go directly to the herd you wish to join. But once you've made that first post, you're good to go, automatically. Perhaps there could be a Threshold prefix (instead of the herd ones?) that essentially says "want to rp" or "don't want to rp", meaning you're posting just to get outcasted, or if you actually want to have a thread (maybe you want to be invited someplace, or you're not sure if you wanna go to the Edge or Falls?).. or something. I dunno, man.

I mean, as I understand it, the Threshold is mostly a nuisance to established players bringing in new characters, and this would eliminate this, yes? But still, for newcomers, it can be an easy avenue to understand wtf is going on on this site xD

But it's an idea, since this "Promotion" system exists. :)

Can we do what Neo suggested? Honestly, I believe it would be best to establish some kind of system that doesn't involve the meticulous "gathering" of new members. I think it would relieve some of the pressure on existing players and allow new players to join automatically. It takes care of two things: people dreading the monotony of the Threshold and waiting for acceptance. Those were the two things that most people had an issue with. I'm all for Neo's plan with the Rogues and the Outcasts/Herd joining. Alongside that, as we have discussed, an automatic posting or NPC would solve the information gap that new players typically receive in a thorough IC thread. Plus, NPC's would be more impartial than recruit respondents. Essentially, the two ideas meshed/combined would be more beneficial and rewarding than the current Threshold concept.

(04-09-2015, 12:19 AM)Roskuld Wrote:

(04-08-2015, 08:41 PM)Cathun Wrote: - Allow people to join characters as Natives?

It would remove the need for the Threshold as they already would be up to date with at least the major turns of events.

If I remember correctly many have said in earlier discussions that they consider the herds to be much larger than just our played characters, thus a new character could potentially be the offspring of NPC's that were around all along, just never stood out or did anything that would make them noticed. Outcasts or 'those who stayed' after invasions, etc.

If, as I suggested above, any new character joins as an Outcast it would be possible to start writing a Native character in any unclaimed territory. Maybe they could be asked to fill in a more in depths Application to make sure they have read some of the lore and know about the Gods, Herds and so on, and then be left with the freedom to decide where they want to begin.

^ Seconded.

^^I like this too

@[Linds], I think this is a good idea, I like Neo/@[Mauja]'s idea A LOT. The only problem is it doesn't solve how newcomers are to learn about the land, but if someone posting in the threshold wanted to then they could maybe tag an NPC to introduce them in one post, maybe in some interesting way. So that could make three tags: Neo's [RP] [No RP] and then [NPC Intro]. And then characters posting straight in herdlands could obviously learn from the herd members.

The only problem I foresee with it is joining threads getting lost in the herdlands, since they are so frequently rped in by current members of the herd; perhaps make a subboard under each of the herdlands called "The Border" or "The Sentinels" or "The Bridge" or "The Wall" or what have you that you can only post in if you are new and seeking acceptance, something where newcomers can post so that their threads will be easily visible? Not to say that herd members can't write as if they are there in the herdland, they just stay out of that board unless they are meeting the newcomers looking to join and joining their thread.


I also just want to add that I am VERY fond of the idea of allowing people to join as natives; They could still work with Neo's system, just post in the threshold coming from inside Helovia and reflect on their life so far or look at trees or what have you rather than how they are coming from another land, if they don't want to join a herd. Otherwise they can post in the herdland and explain they're "from around here."

I personally, do not enjoy the Threshold. It is monotonous, threads get dropped a lot, I feel pressured to respond quickly because I don't want to hold people up, I feel my character has to be a little bit unlike their normal selves in order to successfully recruit half the time, and I feel like it doesn't even always make IC sense that there is a recruiting land. Then if you are successful, you usually have to do an additional welcoming thread int he herd land which is also very tedious.

I'd be much happier to accept or deny people wanting to come into the herd at its borders, or through random interactions with outcasts in the wild, accept members that way where it's not as forced.

On the opposite side though, as the new character in the Threshold, I do like it. It's a great way to explore your new character, to learn about some of Helovia, and to make some of those first connections. I've often found that a character tends to befriend whoever their recruiter is, a friendship which can last long into the herd, so I think that can be important.

I'm just not sure still how to make it better for the person on the other end, that has a herd and has to constantly recruit, because that's the part that I dislike so much. I wish more outcasts were in need of home, because honestly to me it is not that normal for horses to go long term without a herd, nor should they be able to survive long as an outcast, so I feel like more outcasts coming to your herd borders is a lot more realistic - but because it isn't, the herd has only the threshold to find new recruits.


I like Elsa's suggestion that the Threshold be mandatory only for the first character of a new player, but I think that will be harder to police, and as I mentioned above I personally enjoy (or at least don't hate) the Threshold when I have a new character, it's the other way around.

Going off Chan's suggestion, I'd almost prefer if everyone was just automatically made an Outcast. Now that we do have the Application, that helps us control new people a bit better so the Threshold doesn't have to be the first place. Regarding the Threshold helping ensure people are "serious" there's plenty of empty bodies as Outcasts too, so I don't think it really helps that much at ensuring active members. If they were an outcast, with more freedom too, then there wouldn't be that pressure and frustration at getting a quick moving Threshold thread.

I could be for the native idea. Just like, a random foal/couple year old horse that was born in the Wilds and has been mostly overlooked by Helovia (because it /is/ a big place)? I guess I just don't see how that's much different from just having a foal from an onsite family. Because when you make a new character and bring it in, there's usually some crazy history that helps define their adult personality (assuming your brought in an adult character), but you'd have to be very careful with a native not actually born onsite, because you'd have to make sure you don't have this strange history that couldn't have happened, or that coincides with Helovia's actual history. The more I thought about this actually the less I favored this idea.

I do like Neo's idea with 1 post automatically makes you an outcast, but as I said earlier I don't even think we need the rogue rank any more now that we have the application and have seen it working well. Going off what Linds said though, and a previous admin idea which we discussed, is that an automated NPC post giving basic Helovia information could be generated - but tweak it so that it's sent after the character's first post (if we nix the post first in threshold anyway, which i do like). This would give them the information a new character needs, and help save the recycled greeting/knowledge existing members have to deliver each time they recruit, which might make the proccess more enjoyable for existing members.

I'm hesitant to go for the NPC greeting idea because the combination of automated and IC worries me. I think you really hit it on the head @[Blu] when you said that the friendship made in the opening thread can be a lasting one, and with an NPC that wouldn't be possible. Not to mention for a site all about writing, it would feel weird to me to introduce new character and players with a pre-recorded message. I would rather hear actual characters that can be interacted with later say similar stuff over again than have one robot NPC.

I totally get what you mean about it being awkward for some characters to be recruiting when it isn't in their nature. I know I like greeting people in the threshold but Ashamin has a hard enough time getting his name out, let alone herd information, and so I don't think he'll be of much use there at this point. This is in part why I suggested a recruiter rank--some characters are particularly perky and charming and their nature is well suited for such a task. I think a "Ambassador/recruiter" class could work well, have rank magic and be like the stealth tier in that you get assigned threshold threads by whoever is in charge. This would help clear up who goes where, and could be explained IC if the rank magic for the lead of this class was something like the ability to see other characters from a distance or whatever, with some restrictions and kinks to obviously be worked out of course.


As for joining a native, I really like it because not everyone can just have a foal from an onsite family, (if their character is infertile or just shitty at the love/sex thing or if it's their first character and they have no one to have a kiddo with) and some people want to join an old warrior that doesn't have a crazy history from elsewhere. Some people also just hate playing foals or having their characters have kids. I think you could get just as much character depth using Helovia's history rather than making some other place up. And since Helovia is 's likely a lot of things are happening that we aren't RPing about. TBH It's always felt a bit odd that so many characters come from other lands rather than Helovia but we never explore or see those other lands, and so few come from the same place unless they are adoptable sets (which let's face it, rarely all get played and active together.)

Idk I am still thinking on this so this is semi-formed. But I'll probably keep posting as I think of things. It's a big topic but I am glad we are all discussing it together.

Just wanted to add a quick note about your rank/recruiter idea Jen, because I do like the idea in theory. My struggle is the application, because in the DT we've made it the responsibility of our citizen (unranked member), to go to the Threshold at least once a season. I don't ever see that happening though. Now with your idea actually having a set rank for it might be more successful than our method, since it is common for unranked members to be the more inactive members overall, or the ones that just want no responsibility period, so that may be where our application has failed. However I just personally can't see it being a popular rank, when herds struggle as it is to fill the roles of the more classic ranks.

Some herds have set up reward systems for people who do go out and recruit, and have been met with variable success. But again this comes back to my issue of experienced members struggling with recruiting because it is so monotonous. If it was more fun to recruit then people would do more often, I would think, so the act of recruiting seems flawed in an of itself, so I'd rather not design some kind of system to encourage people to recruit if it's just not fun and that's why they're not doing it.

Although I recognize that /I/ dislike recruiting, maybe not everyone does, but I also know I don't stand alone.

But you are right Jen that the automated NPC message would be more detached for new members, for whom the recruiting process is fun.

Hmm, what if we just assume everyone is literate and there's like stone tablets in the Threshold that have some knowledge and history that new members can choose to read or not read as they come in?