BACKGROUND: The admin were discussing a way how to improve the ranked sneak's ability to successfully steal things, and we then got the idea that it might be better to generate a system (roughly like the battle system but less complex) that keeps tracks of a sneak's skill! This leads into other discussions on how to make a tiered system for other rank abilities.

FOCUS: For right now, we will be discussing SNEAK ONLY because of it's prevalence and relevance to all. IE, it affects both outcasts AND herd characters, anyone can get stolen from, etc, etc. Other ranks currently are insular to herds only.

GUIDELINES: Please respond only ONCE with your initial thoughts guided by the prompts. Do NOT respond to each other. We will create an actual discussion board if everyone's initial responses seem to warrant other discussion.

PROMPTS:


SOME ADMIN IDEAS
- The longer you are in the position, the higher your sneak "CRIT CHANCE". IE, if you have been a sneak in a herd for 1 season, your crit chance is 10%. That means that if someone successfully blocks your stealth, a 10 sided dice is rolled. If it rolls a 1, that item is stolen anyway because the sneak is more skilled. (Rough numbers)

- The number of successful stealths you have increases your "CRIT CHANCE" of successful stealth

- The longer you are in a position, the more guesses you get!

Do you want a sneak system? Honestly depends on what it is.

How would you want to keep track of it? I think the idea of longer you are in the position is appealing initially but after thinking about it more I'm not sure about it. The idea is the tier 2 sneak position is the best sneak in the herd, but someone in tier 3 might have been there longer than the tier 2. Maybe it would make more sense for the higher the tier the better your "crit chance" or what have you is, but then just no one of a lower rank would block (less fun.) I VERY MUCH like the idea of number of successful stealths because it's similar to VP and EXP and rewards you for hard work and trying, etc, but it is another thing for admins to have to keep track of and I understand you all have lots on your plate as is.

How do you think it should affect stealths? I think the idea of rolling for a stealth block to work makes sense for outcasts but doesn't for herds. I know there's been eternal talk about how to make it so it isn't easier to block yourself as a lone outcast, and applying it to one but not the other would do that. Plus, if you have a herd behind you in theory that whole herd can be watching out for you, it doesn't make sense that the whole herd couldn't fend off the one thief. Then again stealths make 0 sense IC (how physically do you pull it off without being noticed barring magical influence, or in the case of stealing a character, physically? How do you know what items people have if you've never met them? Etc etc.,) they're a very problematic system. At the same time, though, I think it would really suck to block a stealth, know it's for you, do that work, and still lose your item/self. I think item theft in general causes a lot of hard feelings, and there's been controversy over the ability to steal items at all because there are some cases where you simply cannot get them back, either because your character is too weak to challenge, the thief goes into AA, you can't find them to get it IC and they're either always watching stealths or you're not great at making them, the thief joins a herd you're allied with and can't steal from, etc. People put a lot of hard work into getting items IC, and while this site isn't about having cool stuff when it's earned with a lot of effort and stolen with not that much (in the case of a block being rolled ineffective) that would suck a lot. And also if this site isn't about having cool stuff and it's more plot driven, the question of a need for item theft at all arises, imo, when there is more opportunity for character growth when the character itself gets stolen and it's a situation you can usually get out of eventually/without as much difficulty/doesn't ever make lots of hard work questing or what have you all for nothing. And yes, I know that as a player with a stealth character I do participate in this and you can call me a hypocrite, but if anybody ever came to me and was truly upset about an item I stole from them I'd definitely talk about a way to return it to them and make a cool plot through it, get them an item pass, or get/design a replacement crafted IC and you can hold me to that.

Other thoughts or concerns: I think I kind of went into it above. Stealing is a big topic, there's a lot to think about. Looking forward to seeing what comes of a discussion and appreciate the opportunity to talk about it with the community.

Do you want a sneak system? Yes

How would you want to keep track of it? I think having it tiered based off of how long / successful a character has been is a good idea. Personally, when it comes to the stealth rank (like with Rex for example) it’s all just kind of word of mouth of whether or not she’s good at it. Having a tiered system would kind of be that visual where you look at a character in a stealth position (or outcast I’m assuming since it works for the both of them?) and can see how good they are at it? Though I can see this as a way of deterring some people from choosing someone that has items because they can look at the stats and see if they’re successful? For instance, when I started being a sneak with Rex, I’d never done it before and the first stealth I made was for Gull (which I had no idea how thievey Gull is) and perhaps if I had looked at a stealth stat I might have been turned off for trying? So maybe in some ways the stat isn’t like a huge difference, but maybe like a buff (like how there’s buffs for characters in sparring)?

How do you think it should affect stealths? I think that personally, it would kind of suck having a stealth that you block (that’s for your character) and have it still pass. Unless of course the stats of the person thieving it is high enough as well? Like a dice battle? xD But then the problem arises, lets say character X has an item they worked hard for but never has made a stealth (so no buffs or any tier to show that they’ve done it) and they get beat even if they’ve blocked themselves by character Y because character Y is a tier 2 sneak? I also wonder if it would work vice-versa (I might be reading this wrong but here goes nothing) if a person who’s never done a stealth before, stealths for an item from a higher stat sneak and the sneak blocks themselves and still loses their item, wouldn’t that basically show that the sneak isn’t as good as his/her job as previously thought? Even with having buffs? I’m not really sure how to go about making it so that way it’s a simple system, but perhaps a little tally thing that doesn’t effect a roll for a stealth would be kind of neat. Like character X has completed 5 successful stealths that’s shown in an accomplishment sort of thing rather than an actual buff/roll? And since stealths keep changing with rules and such, I think maybe having an even more detailed list of what’s good and what’s bad could be shown again? (though I really do love the current good/bad) I just think that perhaps they can be so versatile that it warrants more examples? Or maybe the idea of letting it run loose is good too, but I know I struggled a lot (and still do really) when making my stealths. xD

Other thoughts or concerns: I talked about this in the Basin chat, but I think having a little board for people to practice stealths would be a good idea! Just an OOC way of being like “What did I do well here and what did I do bad?” That way there’s no hard feelings and people could get the gist of how to make good stealths without completely failing every time. And this way nothing would actually be stolen? It’d also be a good idea to take ideas from it and make your own stealths but be unable to use one you created in the OOC board (for obvious reasons that people would know who you were going for since it’s already been discussed?) xD I love the idea that we’re talking about this, because personally being in a sneak rank in the Basin is a bit confusing for me at times, so I think having something to actually talk about with it would be a great discussion!

To fix what Jen said.... this would ONLY apply to ranked sneaks. IE, those 2 with rank magic. Anything else is herd determined only and the admin doesn't deal with that. @Ashamin

Also, the growth center is where you should post for help and ideas :D you can even make your own stealth thread there if you want @Rexanna

Do you want a sneak system? Yes, but I don't think it should apply to only herd members/ranked characters.

How would you want to keep track of it?

I quite like the idea of creating a simplified buff system for stealth. Perhaps we could make a little note beside the hp and buffs in the battle stats under our avatars that record our stealth win percentage. My one concern here is that stealth is an acquired skill just like fighting and just because someone gives you a title it doesn't automatically mean that you are good at what you do. I'd like to see a system where your activity increases your odds of success. With the battle buff system you get rewarded for sparring - I think we should be similarly rewarded for doing stealthy stuff. :) This means outcast characters should have a shot at 'leveling up' too.

How do you think it should affect stealths? While I do enjoy the riddle system we have now, I think it can be improved a lot. We roll a dice in spars which influence our shot at winning - perhaps a similar system can be created where a part of your stealth is influenced by dice too.

Other thoughts or concerns: I'd love to see a system that includes outcasts as well. As you said Stealth is something that everyone can learn/do, and while someone who works with it on a daily basis ought to have an advantage (like the ranked warrior buffs in battle) I hope a new system won't exclude those not part of a herd. There should be pro's to being part of a herd, but I don't think we should punish those who find more enjoyment in running alone too much. :) I also think that a leveling system can be applied to all IC skills - including healing and crafting. Higher buff would create more durable items, more effective healing etc.

Do you want a sneak system? Yes, but only if the system currently in place is revamped, as I feel like it has a good number of issues that could be hammered out.
How would you want to keep track of it? It would probably be easiest if the staff who concluded a stealth activity successful/not successful went ahead and adjusted the tracker.
How do you think it should affect stealths? A "free" stealth every year to the top sneaks for each herd and the outcast with the most successful stealths (so five characters total), where they take an item or character without much more than a "BillyBob takes Karen's knife because he can." While you may be like "well that's unfair as hell," please consider that ALL the herds will have one of these characters, and thereby will be able to just free steal your item back in, at most, a year - so I think it has its own checks and balances; this also is a way to mend the "I can't get my stuff back!" issue that Jen brought up. Other people may be quipping in at this point, "but herds are supposed to have an advantage," but I feel like they still do with a ratio of four to one. Not to mention, thieves tend to be outcasts in our society, too, so it really just makes sense ICly! However, I don't really approve of any other "auto-win" system unless it pertains, directly, to the character's stats and accumulated in game successes, though I also feel that characters should not be rewarded for the time they have held a rank, as players become grossly inactive in their positions at periods, and I feel like rewarding something as easily maintained as a rank (anymore than the rank magic already does) unfair. I also like small stat increases and maybe a tiered ability system, such as the one we have for Battles, which rewards players for being good at what they do (and being active at it)!
Other thoughts or concerns: I intensely dislike the riddle system and feel like it is just, in general, dysfunctional! As I've seen, a very small fraction of OOC players participate in stealing, mostly because I also feel like its a bit of a crap shoot... More often than not, I can identify a stealth as targeting my character, even if its not, and so I feel like the likelihood of your stealth being passed is, at this point, more likely related to the fact that a herd used all their guesses without hitting the proper character (which happens more than you'd think, from my memory of helping with stealths in the Basin. Some had as many as 10 valid characters!), or the outcast didn't look at the board in time... or, the worst case scenario of the dreaded stealth floods, where there are up to 10 of them to filter through, and only 1-2 herd members taking the time to look through them. To be fair, some players to write great riddles - but at the end of the day, I personally call the stealth board "the silly poems about our characters board," and on days when its flooded, "Satan."

This also leads me to my second point, which is that the only persons I have had "infiltrate" a thread with the intent of gleaning information from my characters (either through manipulation or trying to remain hidden) has been Chan, with Shadow, and Hawk, with Thranduil, and while characters are often seen nosing about herds, they are almost always caught immediately (and often unrealistically). I feel like our current system leaves the region of intelligence gathering and spying almost completely invalidated, because while it is in our guidebook that we can do these things, there are no systems in place to protect both parties from any power play or general hurt feelings. The players who want to use it at risk of unfair/biased/plain unkind behavior from their peers, and the players who are the recipients of these sneaky behaviors are equally at risk of the sneak taking advantage of the situation. It boils down to the fact that the current system is largely dependent on individuals, how well they write, and their moral compass - and I feel like this area of stealth in particular could benefit from a stat based or some other form of formatted system.

The Realization I Provided Only Problems and Not Solutions, Some Days Later
Aha I do it a lot while trying to make sure I hit all my points... but to be honest, I think this time I just needed more time to puzzle over a secondary way to making stealing fun for everyone and a little more realistic.

I think that a way to resolve a lot of the issues that I see around the riddle system would be to have an IC system working alongside an OOC system, much like what is going on in our battlefield. A thief will post in a thread with the character they want to steal from (ensuring active characters are the ones involved in this system), OR may post a thread in a new OOC region, which would symbolize all of Helovia, much as the Battleground does. Either way, this post is In Character, and involves the sneak attempting to get close enough to the character in question to take the item they would like, or the character themselves.

Like battles, these sneak threads take on a series of stat to stat rolls, comparing, also, the writing and strategy involved in this series of posts. Unlike battles, the final "closing post" would come only after a staff member in charge of rolls and stealth evaluation determine whether or not the sneak was successful, with the closing post explaining how the object/person was taken.

I feel like this solves many issues, including, primarily, the impersonal nature of the current system, in which characters who have no way of knowing each other know of each other, and makes it based on the accumulative skills you and a character have earned. This system would also allow the application of a rewards system, similar to the Battle Buffs, much easier to implement and much more logical ICly! I also do not feel that this puts any more pressure on the staff than the current stealth system, and that it would greatly enrich the game.

Do you want a sneak system? Honestly it depends.
How would you want to keep track of it? More on this in the last section...
How do you think it should affect stealths?
There's no denying it, Helovia has gotten really -really- good at stealths. The chances of it actually being unblocked, and passing are incredibly slim. Which honestly is a detractor for me from trying to do one to begin with (not to mention I'm terrible at them). I'm not sure if others feel this (I've tried not to read comments already here), but I feel like we go "nope can't get that" for pretty much everyone. PLUS if you go after the wrong thing you get pummeled. Though fair and realistic it can still be annoying to always have that consequence. So I think it would be nice for the sneaks to get a little heads up with some dice, even considering the expense of my stuff being stolen more. I think to revive the stealth board it does need shaking up. I think we need to give sneaks an incentive for stealthing, something to pep them up. 
I like the idea of experience tying in to give you more of a chance to steal items. Its like the buff system! Which is brilliant. The problem though is how to use it. If a stealth is blocked, and you roll and get the item, would you still have to see if the stealth would pass? Or would the blocking be confirmation enough that the stealth could pass? What if it was just a lucky guess and the stealth was horrible and never could have passed? What then would you do if it wasn't guessed and didn't pass? That stealth should then have an equal chance of rolling the dice. That though completely nullifies the writing portion which keeps stealths in check. And if that goes then you can just write whatever the heck you want. So how will you use the dice yet keep the writing standard. You could like the fighting boards do a mix of the two, but that seriously complicates the process, and you run into the argument that still persists in the fighting boards of whether the writing or dice should count more.
Other thoughts or concerns:
Here's my biggest concern. You're talking about giving advantage to sneaks who are ranked is what it sounds like, and I'm not sure that's a good idea. Now I admit at the moment I could sound rather biased BUT HERE ME OUT. There are a lot of outcasts at the moment who would, if ranked, be sneaks or part sneak.(I'm behind on the times so excuse me) Ophelia, Nymeria, Ghost (was an outcast...can't remember now), Oultik, Aisling. LOTS of those active on the stealth board are outcasts. Now you simply can't tell me they are not skilled/not getting more skilled just they're not in a rank. IN FACT, some of them are probably MORE active because they are outcasts. For instance you can be more crazy sneak without keeping to the ties of herds. So if you give points to those in sneak ranks you completely miss an entire portion of actual sneaks. To compare it warriors, outcasts can still have battle stats and earn buffs even without being ranked. They do get bonuses for being ranked, but its just a cherry on top. Again though, to make a system that sophisticated might be more than you're asking for. 
Additionally, if you're going to have sneaks outcasts or not gain stealth skills, then they will have to be categorized as such. Now if you can do this like battle stats, no problem. But if this is going to be a growing trend of giving each rank systems like this then you'd have an issue. Because characters go in multiple categories and you could have a character with all these multiple stats and it can get a bit out of hand. But you couldn't stop them from having them because it would be very unfair to deny stats to people. 

And just on a final note. Unlike fighting there are a multitude of ways outside the stealth board to show your sneak skills. In fact for those, like me, who are ungifted in the ways of writing stealths this is a major appeal of being a sneak. There are just so many ways to be a good one! I worry then that if we start to put numbers on sneaks like we do fighters they will be judged by that number. Which in the stealth board is fine. BUT what I worry might happen is it might negate any of the out-of-stealth-board sneaks. Again, I sound biased I know but hear me out. A lot of characters have magic, plots, or personality that makes them a better sneak than even some who do just fine on the stealth boards. How can you possibly quantify that? This isn't like fighting where a character's build is easy-ish to translate into numbers. This is about how good a player/character is at moving through the game. 

Finally there is the issue of base stats. You can't tell me that a brand new character just joining Helovia has zero stealth stats. Even brand new fighters get base level stats. It would be unrealistic to say then in the history "this character has been stealing his entire life" and his has no stealth-cred. Of course you could get around this I suppose with the argument that well yes they have been stealthing but they don't know this territory/horses, which is a credible argument I suppose. Yet then again you run into the problem of how can they earn that there you run into my first point in this section. And if you go further with this, and say that, alright the longer you're around or the more posts, the more helovia experience, and this becomes troubling cause you can EASILY get characters who become all powerful in anything. It might be nice to shake it up that way/reward the loyals, but think of how confusing it would be and how turn-off-ish for new players. A new player if they couldn't reach those high levels might be very put off. So then you'd have to max it and it just becomes a nightmare. 


SO basically, I do think sneaks need a level up, something to swing the stealth boards back to their vantage, but I haven't the slightest clue how to do it fairly. Sorry....I fear I'm not much help...

Do you want a sneak system? Yes

How would you want to keep track of it?

So I think that there should be something along the lines of keeping track of successful stealths. On that characters page it could have successful stealths, and that could have to do with a Buff type of system.


How do you think it should affect stealths?

Okay so from reading concerns that others have I have a great idea!! It has to do with dice and the riddle. So while I believe stealths are the most unrealistic thing on this whole site, they seem to work with the riddle system. I know it can be difficult for some people, but it does work pretty well. I am really not sure how else you could change the system to where it actually could work . So here is Dressy's grand plan. If the stealth is blocked then let it be blocked. I do not agree with a blocked stealth being rolled for to get passed no matter what. I believe this is unfair and it can cause a lot of unhappy people. So If the stealth passes the 48 hour time period, or the herd guesses are up and the item or character has not been protected then admin can do their thing, except only one will respond to give a total of points, but not say if they passed or failed. Then once Admin has responded a dice can be rolled for a number and lets say the stealth gets a total of 3 points from admin, and the dice rolls a 4 that would be 7 points total . The Buff would add a number as well depending how high it is or how low. Then all numbers are added together, so 3/3 from admin 4/6 from the dice and then lets say 3 from the Buff, that is a total of 10/9 (I added the Max amount of good clues needed to pass a stealth and the max you could get on a 6 sided dice for the bottom #) and if it is 8/9 or higher the stealth will pass. This way it gives a higher chance of passing if your character has a higher buff. I feel everyone should start with a buff number.... But i am unsure how that can be figured out... Maybe in herd it could be by rank, but i am unsure of outcast. I think this is a bit more fair because it is a number system and not really an opinion system.

I will say if people want more of a chance of winning a blocked stealth (although i am opposed to it I have an Idea) the stealth must score a 3/3 or higher from admin in order for there to be a roll. If there is a roll it must roll a 4 or higher so there is a 50/50 chance this will happen. Then with the characters Buff added in, the score must be a 10/9 or higher. This way it is difficult, but a sneak with a higher BUFF could have a higher chance of this happening. So the Buff would have to be 3 or higher if a 4 was rolled and they got 3/3 from admin.

I hope this made sense!!!

Other thoughts or concerns:

Oh look we can keep the riddles with this system idea...
Using a similar system with the riddles that we do now is also a possibility. I've been thinking about it the last few weeks to myself and have come up with this solution, as I know a lot of people like the riddle system!

Bob the Outcast posts a stealth, as normal, with at least three clues. Characters guess as to whether it is their character, as usual, with a guess per 10 characters within each herd, and Outcasts blocking themselves. If no one guesses the stealth within the proper time allotment, Bob gets the item, per usual, so long as his clues pass. But what if the stealth is guessed? This is where things differ from our traditional system.

Here is our sample stealth:

You are a bird
dressed in white,
the desert stretches
glimmers on silver.

The stealth is targeting Sue of the Dragon's Throat, who guesses the clues as follows:

You are a bird
- Pegasus +1
a damsel in white,
- Sue is white +1
the desert stretches
- Sue is from the Dragon's Throat +1
glimmers on silver.
- Sue has silver hooves. +1

Bob will have sent the clues for this riddle to the Official account when he set up the stealth, to make sure he doesn't alter any of his solutions to beat out Sue. The PM looks sort of like this, with +# signifying the number of clues in that line that need to be guessed. More than one clue can exist in a line, and the same type of clue can be used as a valid point more than once. There may be up to 15 clues in your riddle, but there must be at least 3.

You are a bird,
- Pegasus +1
a damsel in white,
- Gender and color reference +2
the desert stretches
- Location +1
glimmers on silver.
- Silver hooves +1

Sue guessed for a total Clue Point score of 4, while Bob's stealth actually has a Clue Point score of 5. This means Bob wins the stealth, so long as all 5 of his clues are valid.

Characters who steal a lot can be rewarded through this system by adding an additional Clue Point for a certain number of stealths (similar to the battle buff system).

I feel like this system offers a lot more than our current one, in that it allows players to target characters that otherwise could not be stolen from (because they block every stealth they see with generic clues *cough*me*cough* :P). It encourages the use of literary skill, and displays the deceptive/clever nature of our sneaks, and critical reading and thinking skills on behalf of the person being stolen from.