I've been thinking about this thread for a while...

What I find most difficult to understand is the "gliding-only" rule if your character can shapeshift into a flying creature and does not have wings. To be frank, it strikes me as a bit nonsensical—while I do presume it's based on the character not knowing how to fly, why can't they... learn to fly? I think one of the main reasons people choose bird-based shape shifting abilities for their land bound character is to offer them a unique method of travel/the chance to experience something new; and to have the gliding rules undermine that.

(11-27-2015, 09:25 AM)Nymeria Wrote: I've been thinking about this thread for a while...

What I find most difficult to understand is the "gliding-only" rule if your character can shapeshift into a flying creature and does not have wings. To be frank, it strikes me as a bit nonsensical—while I do presume it's based on the character not knowing how to fly, why can't they... learn to fly? I think one of the main reasons people choose bird-based shape shifting abilities for their land bound character is to offer them a unique method of travel/the chance to experience something new; and to have the gliding rules undermine that.

I agree completely. The gliding rules have always struck me as slightly illogical. I understand that pegasi have a magical component that allows them to fly, however when a uni/equine transforms into, say, a robin, they gain all the things that allow robins to fly - hollow bones etc. Not being able to fly because they haven't learnt makes no sense to me, because by that logic, a horse who shapeshifts into a lion shouldn't be able to extend and retract their claws because they've never learnt how, or a fish shouldn't be able to swim because they've never learnt how. Our characters can learn how to use magic, why not learn how to fly?

As Wanda says, the main reason for 'land-lubbing' charries to want to shift into a flying character is to experience flight, so the gliding rules really restrict that. I understand the restrictions on item-given flight, but shapeshifting flight just doesn't need to be restricted imo.

(11-28-2015, 09:57 AM)Volterra Wrote: As Wanda says, the main reason for 'land-lubbing' charries to want to shift into a flying character is to experience flight, so the gliding rules really restrict that. I understand the restrictions on item-given flight, but shapeshifting flight just doesn't need to be restricted imo.

This is basically exactly the reason.

There needs to be something unique about being a pegasus. And the thing which is unique, is the ability to fly. We didn't want magic or magical items to be able to circumvent what we took to be an integral part of one of the species here. If you could just give yourself magical wings, or be able to shapeshift into a flighted creature, the intrinsic 'specialness' of being a peg would be totally gone.

So this is one of those times where we've made the executive decision to forego a bit of realism, in order to save something that we take to be unique to one of the species.

If you want to fly, you have to be a peg. Period. Regardless of what form you take.

@Hera

The Admin's have definitely thought about this - but it would lead to everyone wanting everything to be un-stealable, which would be no fun. No one wants their items to be stolen, especially when they are meaningful. But that's one of the aspects of this game that we really do like and want to preserve. It's what adds an element of tension and realism - there's literally nothing that can't be stolen from you. Think of Confutatis' armor. It was magical infused into her skin, but that was stolen.

We've thought about it, and we want to keep everything stealable.

If flight is the specialness of pegs, how come we allow items to be used as horns? There's been a few item-horns attached on non-unis iirc. Because isn't the horns the specialness of unis, or did you pick something else as its specialness? :3

Well, we allow items to be used as wings too - they just aren't as effective. The same applies to uni's. When you use a custom item as a 'horn', it is 1. Never as strong as real horns 2. Can be stolen 3. Can be broken and 4. Does not have any intrinsic magical properties the way uni horns do (like when rolling foal stats, a uni with no magic has a chance of a magical foal, whereas someone with a custom item for a horn does not).

Aah, I see. ^^

Alright! Makes sense to me.

Sorry for double-posting ideas... but I have another suggestion xD I couldn't resist just tossing the idea out there.

I realize this would be work much harder for administrators (probably) but I was keeping a fairly close eye on the SWP. When the points were revealed, I think much of it had a great idea behind it. My only complaint is that in several cases, like posting to a thread, you could be rewarded for just having more characters. Helovia, to me, has been about keeping your characters active and loving them—whether you have one character or ten. What I'm getting to is that instead of having, for example, "1 Point | Posted in the opening thread of a new board", maybe you should start out from a base number of points (let's say 100) and detract points from that based on a person's participation or lack of?

For example, let's say you have 5 characters. 100 divided by 5 = 20. If you post three characters, you lose 40 points, because you didn't post them all.
Or if you have only 2 characters. 100 divided by 2 = 50. If you post only one character, you lose 50 points.

Anyways, I know this probably wouldn't work in practice, but I thought I would toss it out there anyways. This way people who are very active with only one character can still achieve the same number of points for their work.

We actually looked at this Wanderer as a sort of.... view into people with 1 character and their points.

What we noticed is that the people who got alot of points generally did so with only 1-2 characters. They just posted ALOT more. And either way, you still do have to post and that should be rewarded. The admin did quite a bit of work looking over all that was written to make sure that the posts were well thought out and intended without being point grabby.

I cannot name a single person on that list who got all the points they did with more then 3 characters, which is actually less that the average amount of characters people have! Also, I don't believe there was a player with only 1 character who posted in every single event to give an estimate of that point value, but if you do the math, with 1 character doing almost everything, you can get between 40-60 points.

When deciding on point values for the store, we took into account that the majority of the people who's single character did everything ALSO had additional characters, we decided on a price that way. We never want to punish people for being involved, but from the numbers this time, we couldn't justify penalizing those who had multiple characters given that those with only 1 (mostly) didn't finish the entire plot.

But we will look into this more now that this plot is over!
This is only the second time we've tried an SWP 'store' so without more data, we can't really make a conclusive decision.

Quote:"Also, I don't believe there was a player with only 1 character who posted in every single event to give an estimate of that point value, but if you do the math, with 1 character doing almost everything, you can get between 40-60 points. "

Just to clear out my own brain-confusion: I believe both Mauja and Maren completed all the events and could've gotten a 'maximum score', but with my math+eyesight that only resulted in around 30-ish (if you weren't a prize winner)...?

Thinking that my brain is right, I must say I do like Wanda's idea on point-calculation. I fail to see why people who chose to have only 1 character and who are generally active (hints to the 'love your character' policy) + fulfill everything SWP, have to be at a disadvantage in the end.

That being said, I think from you guys' perspective it is a hard discussion overall and there might never be a good way to do it to please every single one of us.  This is however, my personal point of view and I felt like I needed to make known that I feel the same/support Wanda's idea. c:

I don't see a problem with the way things were run at all. Don't forget that a person who has managed to post three or four characters to every event has put down three or four times as much time and effort as those with only one character. Why should they not be awarded with points/prizes to reflect that effort?

As far as I could tell, there was every chance for everyone to earn pretty much endless amounts of points by threading in the new boards. Whether you have one active character or three, there's still the same amount of hours in the day for everyone, and whether you wish to spread that time and energy over one character or more should be up to each player.

I don't think there's any need to make this more complicated than it already is. If you post to everything in a swp, you get points. Great! One person happens to have three characters while someone else have one? Keep the option of earning more points based on activity/threads/etc, as was done this time with 'one point per thread in X board' . That evens out the differences and gives everyone equal opportunity for rewards. A person can't be everywhere at once, and a player can't cram endless amounts of characters into an event without losing out on quality in writing - or personal sanity. x3

Personally, I doubt it will get any better if we start looking at amount of characters someone has, because then we might as well consider how many words there was in a post, how many posts were made during the event, how often people logs in and so on and so forth. Some characters won't be involved in a swp event at all, while other's might be in it from start to finish. Having ten characters doesn't mean you will enter everyone into everything, and to have your number of characters counted against you seems very strange to me. This is, after all, a site focused on writing, and I think that it is by our writing and participation that we should be rewarded.

As was done during this swp.

I am personally very pleased with the whole thing, and really look forward to the continuation of the plot! :)

Well! I think we can very easily see how complex this issue is, which is why the admin have been handling it very carefully.

On the one hand: we did not see a single person who posted multiple characters not put significant effort into all of their posts. Since we do want activity and we do want participation from potentially the theoretical "whole" population of Helovia, it makes sense that we would reward players who would help achieve this, as close to possible, "global" activity and participation goal.

On the other hand: people who play only one character and are dedicated to one are also incredibly important. Their participation level should mirror their efforts in points/abilities and they should not be penalized for just having one. We never want to make it a positive thing for people to get in over their heads, so to speak - or unnecessarily tempt people to create an additional character who only shows up during SWPs.


Both of those I consider equal in importance! I do not think wanderer's proposition, as well thought out as it was, would achieve equality for these ideas. But, I think that there is potential for a mathematical "normalization" of data for those with one character vs. the average of 3. In this way, it would bring people with one character up without taking the people who posted more characters down.

I'll sleep on this and see if I can't come up with some better ideas!

As I said, I don't think it's an easy issue—if you can even call it an issue :P — to resolve. Neither do I think anyone should be undermined for posting with three or four or even more characters!

Anyways, it was just a thought I figured was worth mentioning ♥

Keep in mind that participating in SWP's should not simply be to 'get stuff' at the end. The only reason we even have a SWP store is to encourage participation and reward those who do participate. I think that interpreting people with only one character, as being at a disadvantage, is a little wrong-headed.

When we are assigning point values, what we do, is ensure that someone who is reasonably active, with only one character, can still get something good. In this case, you could get magic, a cool custom item, or a few combinations of other things. No one is entitled to be able to earn something with the highest point value. Reasonable activity with one character, gets you a reasonably good prize. It should not be the case that reasonable activity with one character gets you something like a SS companion. That's supposed to be rare and harder - having only two people get one this time around, is about the right distribution.

As Chan pointed out, it is not that one-character people are being penalized, but rather that those with more characters (and so who have to put in more effort), are rewarded for that.

As for Wanda's suggestion - I would never want to penalize someone for not participating. That is absolutely not the point of these plots. We want people to participate, and the mind set of "oh, if I participate maybe I'll get some cool stuff at the end" is really quite different from the stress that comes with "oh fuck if I don't post I'm going to lose points.." We don't want people to think that they're doing something wrong by not posting.

---

But we appreciate the feedback and will consider it for next time :)

(07-30-2015, 09:25 PM)Blu Wrote: ECONOMY

I'd really love if each herd had two valuable resources to craft with, and that they got a set amount of those resources each month/season with which to make items for themselves and/or trade resources/crafted materials with other herds. I feel this would give more purpose to alliances and invasions both - think about why most countries work together or fight, it is usually due to natural resources specific to those areas.

Idea:
AB: cloth & leather
DT: metal & rubber
HF: stone & wood
WE: glass & plastic

This would also enhance realism and give crafters a lot more purpose and direction when making items. Now if a herd/crafter wants to make metal armor, they'll need x amount of ores and x amount of cloth/leather. This means it will take some time to gather the needed materials (exact values we'd need to determine obviously), either from their own herd and another herd, or two herds total, for which they could barter.

This could help make mercenaries more playable because there'd be actual things to trade ICly.


To help balance this system I'd like to see less items handed out, again giving more focus to playing the origin and acquirement of your item, and giving more value to crafters.


On a related note, the ability then for a crafter to enchant an item once a season (maybe only 1 item enchanted a season per herd, rather than per crafter?), which would again be a way to balance and focus the idea of cool items being made by characters and herds, rather than Random Events.

I know this isn't what the current train of thought it but I just want to say how much I LOVE these ideas. Having just one resources seriously limits what you can do (Let's face it, the Dragon's Throat can make a full set of metal armor and the Basin can make you a blanket) and an item enchantment slot could be a good way to reward IC and help strengthen generals/champions/etcs characters for their herd's sake.

Note to readers: I didn't really want or need anything from the store, aside from an OOC thing I wasn't even going to use on Mauja. And it was one of the lower priced ones, so no problem. The fact I'm writing here is because I'm uncomfortable/unhappy with the system, not because I have some kind of personal agenda and wanting more stuff.

Anyway:

Mauja and Maren fulfilled every part of the plot. I contracted all diseases I were eligible for, which happened to be one, as I believe I was immune to two of them due to my magic combinations. Between full time education, 3+ hrs/day commuting, burnout, and a horse, I managed to join/make 6 threads in the new areas, but unfortunately, I ditched my one attempt at healing a disease.

Full participation without diseases granted you ..27 points or something, iirc. I think I totaled out at 34. I was prepared to be locked out of most "pricier" things in the SWP store but I still wished it had been differently. Again, see my point on this being more of an uncomfortableness with the system rather than a personal agenda.

I had actually written up a PM I was going to send to Official about this, but because I'm a dork I lost it. I'm however ditching that idea and just suggesting this other thing I thought of after I wrote that draft. For the record it was about dividing the store into IC/OOC, but I ditched it because it would enable all your fully-participated-with characters to get the "top tier" stuff. However I can explain it if someone wants me to. :)

What I want to suggest now is a percentage based SWP store. If you finished the plot/made it over a certain number of points (in this case I'd say 27, because that was the maxed out points from the participation, maybe based per character? I don't know man) the SWP prices would be a percentage of your total points. It would've had much the same effect as the current store, but would've enabled those with fewer characters (but no less dedication) to access the pricier prizes. I realize this would mean the absolute top things would be accessible by everyone who finished then, so maybe make it something like .. % of your points + X amount of extra points (per character?). I don't know. But it's a base idea that, to me, seems fairer, it would just need some tweaks so the distribution of "top tier" stuff doesn't get all wonky.

You are welcome to remove this post if you feel it is too out of place. You could always just move it to an admin board if you wish to keep any of the ideas for discussion. :)

Anyway. This is getting long again so I'll just stop thinking and post it. Cheers.

EDIT: jk it gets longer

I just wanted to say I had a lot of fun in the SWP, new lands means new muse, and it sparked some great development for me! What with Irma almost dying, Aviya dying, d'Art leaving, and Snö dying. The development alone is a reward that makes SWP participation "worth it" and super fun! :) Just realized I didn't mention this even once in my post but I wanted to add it.

People don't use what we already give them ;)
There is very little crafting that happens, is recorded and updated in the records. If people actually use the ranks, we would consider it.

@Ashamin

I considered a percentage base, Neo, but the problem with that is that we allowed for unlimited "add-on" points for the extras. Like the disease curing, posting in a new board, etc. Since those were unlimited, it makes the base number hell to work with, even though I really like your idea. In the future we may be able to set up an SWP with a base number already in mind instead of cumulative points, but I don't think it would have really worked out here.

But I do understand it's a complex issue, and I do want to work on it going forward!


@Mauja

One alternative would have there to simply be more ways for one-character players to get points.

In this plot, posting multiple times in a SWP encounter thread didn't do anything extra for you. It was a one-and-done type of deal. We also didn't release ahead of time, how to get points like we did in the previous SWP. We found that it was too easy to just do things for the points, and wanted to avoid that. But perhaps if you wanted a way to be able to work towards more points, we could just expand the class of things that get you points.

---

What it sounds like I"m hearing, is that you want a way for one character, who participates fully in a SWP, to be able to 'buy better things'. I guess I'd like to hear an argument as to why that should be the case. For this plot, regular participation (like you, Neo) could get you magic, a custom item, a companion, a VOTG pass, etc. For just showing up and doing what you would probably normally do and getting all the IC benefits of plots and development, you also get this bonus at the end. To participate fully only requires 15 posts - and this was over a few months. Yes, there were time constraints to get posts in, but it isn't too terribly difficult. I think the points/prizes awarded for full participation are adequate. We can't have it be the case that everyone who does the regular amount of work gets mutations or SS companions - those are supposed to be rare. And so that implies that there needs to be a higher point value added - higher than just what 'average' gets you. And we give ways of doing that - you got unlimited amounts of points for posting in SWP boards (again, maybe this is the problem - there needs to be more ways to earn points over and above the baseline participation amount). 

So while the baseline took 15 posts, for people with other characters who participated, they posted somewhere closer to like 60 (with 4 characters fully participating). It just seems to follow that they put in more effort (albiet perhaps it was 'easier' in a sense, since they could just join the SWP threads), but it seems they should be equally rewarded for all those extra posts. 

tl;dr : the baseline should get you something good, but I don't see why it should get you anything 'great'. Getting free magic/VOTG pass/custom item/companion etc is a really nice prize for baseline participation, imo.

@Odd
"I think that interpreting people with only one character, as being at a disadvantage, is a little wrong-headed."

Having one character means to me that it wouldn't matter if an SWP were to be encouraged with an OOC shop, since I would find the fun and development in it for my active character anyway. However, when you have multiple characters you have more points. Calling it a disadvantage is just not wrapping the truth in nice cozyness, so I'm confused how you can so easily say it isn't (and call me//that statement "wrong-headed"? I mean no harm: I am just putting my voice out there because I feel like your admin team might benefit from it and I don't feel like "wrong-headed" would describe that action.. at all).

@Erthë
"I don't see a problem with the way things were run at all. Don't forget that a person who has managed to post three or four characters to every event has put down three or four times as much time and effort as those with only one character. Why should they not be awarded with points/prizes to reflect that effort?"

Who says someone can't put as much effort/participation into 1 post as someone else can do in 3 ...? So... What I actually hear that you are saying is that basically everyone who puts in an equal amount of effort should be rewarded the same.
I agree!


"Every chance for everyone to earn endless amounts of points"
Uh, for someone with one fully participated characters (+-30 points) that would've been... +40 threads to reply in. :') And I am saying that while pretending we knew we could get points doing that!
(again: Not that it matters, I just want to make clear that that isn't reasonable.)

Just throwing this out there:
Perhaps the idea/concept of a shop just isn't a good idea?
Perhaps there is an alternative?



PS. I am not trying to sound unhappy about how things went, I loved every part of it (which was why I participated) and I applaud the originality and hard work of the admin. I like the shop too! It keeps stuff exciting, which is also why it is being adressed and discussed so passionately by members to make it equally as fun and fair for everyone and to perhaps one day reach perfection (my opinion)! Again: as this is what this thread is made for, I just want to give my opinion/support. --Shouldn't have opened a thread like this if you didn't wanted to hear it, ghehe. -runs-

(These things always end up to be long somehow)
Whatever happens I look forward to it. <3