@Maren

Hey Nikki - sorry if that sounded unduly directed towards you. I meant 'wrong-headed' just to mean that I think people's interpretation and understanding needed to shift. Sorry if it came across that way :) I don't really understand the rest of what you said :/ People with only one character, in principle could earn just as many points. People with multiple characters were doing a lot of work. They wrote about 3-4 times as many posts as you did, and so I don't think about it so much as saying that one-character people are disadvantaged, so much as it's just rewarding them.

But I do hear you - the system could be improved, and we certainly will take all of this into consideration next time :)

.. And I look forward to it! (:

(12-13-2015, 02:28 PM)Tamme Wrote: People don't use what we already give them ;)
There is very little crafting that happens, is recorded and updated in the records. If people actually use the ranks, we would consider it.

[oops sorry Ashamin didn't realize the tag got quoted]

I definitely see what you're saying Tamme, and think that's a fair evaluation, but I do think there's a bit of a catch-22. The crafters are not used often enough because there is not enough demand for them, if we reduced items and put more drive for items to come from crafters rather than prizes, their demand would increase.

Of course, crafters will never fully replace item prizes because crafters cannot make enough materials to meet everyone's needs - metal, stone, glass, cloth, leather, diamond, wood, bone, scale, rubber, plastic. Even some items that can be made from crafters currently aren't (like metal trinkets are born of prizes rather than DT). However I think giving crafters more things to craft (thus 2 types per herd instead of 1) could be more helpful. For instance, I used an item prize to get my dragon ball made because I wanted it made of scales and no crafter, herd or personal, does that. Then I also got my metal knives and metal shield from item prizes instead of crafters because I wanted them enchanted (hence suggesting crafters be allowed to enchant in rare occasions). True you can get the item crafted first then quest to enchant it later, but just as there's a difference with joining a character already intact with magic vs. questing for it, so I feel there's also with acquiring an enchanted item vs. placing the enchantment, there's a different history to it which might vary with certain characters.

Anyway, getting into a tangent. I feel crafters need to be helped to more usefulness, which is not a fault in and of the crafting system itself, true, but changing the system could also help.




1. The herds don't seem balanced at the moment with what they can craft. DT metal, HF stone, WE glass, AB cloth. Metal and stone are very strong items and there's a lot more demand for them. Glass and cloth seem much weaker and there doesn't seem to be much need for them, due in part because of this weakness. Because what are the main items people want? They want things that increase their stats, armor, horse shoes, weapons, these are the most common, along with various little decorative trinkets which are mostly metal in origin, sometimes glass and bone. I know glass and cloth have plenty of practical uses, definitely that's true, but I think that's more true for real life than it is the rp life of our horses. Maybe if the glass and cloth were magically as strong as metal and stone, then sure (like how skyrim has glass armor), but we apply real rules to them.

That's why I think we either need to balance the herds DT metal, HF stone, WE diamond?, AB leather? (I don't know if part of the reason we didn't do leather to begin with was inability to harvest hides easily? I feel like the north region though would see lots of corpses with animals starving, it's one of the harshest herd lands to live in, so realistically I feel hide could be arguably easy to find there).

Or, keep the herds crafts as is but add additional crafting to them. Something 'weaker' but still useful to DT and HF, and something stronger, more able to be armor and weapons, to WE and AB. I prefer this because again it'd give more resources total giving characters more options with the crafters versus items prizes.



2. I feel like crafters haven't had a lot of structure or guidance. They ask questions that go unanswered (not by admin per say) or have unclear answers that leaves people confused and uncertain. Particularly in what the requirements are to craft and when something is 'done', and how much is needed to complete something. Sure we have small, medium, large, and general ideas for how much that is, but how many large items to build a house? 1 horse length is roughly a large item, so 1 wall that is horse lengths long, but how high, how thick, is a room with 4 walls (4 large items) that roughly fits the horse enough? What about a wall all around the herd, or a classroom to fit several horses - I feel like we don't always have answers for these questions. We have gotten better, which is because crafting already has improved and increased from where it used to be, so as with any of our rules and systems our answers as admin have evolved with the questions and the problems that are newly proposed to us, but I still feel like this system needs help in that department.

Which, is why we as admin have discussed writing a crafting guide, and I think that will be a huge help to the crafter rank.
I also think herds leaders (PSA here) need to give their crafters more guidance - because crafters have x amount they can make each season they don't want to upset the herd leads, but without quick confirmation and direction, the season is suddenly up and nothing was made because of a fear of waste, which in turn created nothing. I feel like crafters are so afraid to use their seasonal slots that in turn they don't use them at all - I once had a character Ink that wanted a glass fake amulet made, and I was told no by the crafter because the herd needed the slot (but to my knowledge nothing was ever made for seasons). So I think crafters need to take charge of their rank (second PSA) and make shit all the time - if a leader specifically says hey make this, then you do, but otherwise don't be afraid to spend your slots.

---

I dunno, I really want crafting to succeed and I feel like just saying crafters need to do more is not necessarily enough. They need help - the admin guide will be a step in that direction, and maybe some time after that is released we can re-evaluate my suggestion of adding more resources to the herd crafters, but I really think that variety is crucial because crafting is a supply and demand economy and they cannot supply what is not demanded =/

Blu, you said everything I was thinking. I especially agree about the imbalance of material and uncertainty of slots already being used, that is the main reason why I see things not being used--worried the herd will need it or simply not having a demand for weaker material made items.

I think also that the problem with trading for items and materials with other herds is A the slot uses not being certain or public, but also the general uncertainty about alliances. I know alliance meetings are not currently up to date in some cases and so as a plain old herd member let alone a crafter, I don't really know who I can go to and trade with. And frankly I don't have much need for cloth, I don't think a lot of characters onsite do. I have gone to crafters for two items and had them crafted--Zahra who was an outcast and I found through the plotting trading center and then Johnny, whom I asked to craft a gift for someone else in the herd. But it took awhile to find out if that slot was needed for something else and the whole process of that ended up being delayed.

Right now the kind of items I want are stat boosters, and cloth can't do that. Maybe if it were enchanted, but that requires a VOTG pass as well--for my sake, it's easier to use and item pass or a custom item rather than going through the complex and confused process of internal crafting sometimes, assuming that my (speaking in a general sense) herd even has the ability to craft the material I need.

I think also in general, possibly because of confusion, crafters don't seem to be as popular as a role to take on onsite. Not sure why that is--I myself have never done it, though I'm hoping to get a crafting character soon.

But the question then is are we striving for reality (IE, trading systems that are subject to embargos based on alliances) which can get gummed up by uncertain relationships, or are we striving for fairness? If we're striving for fairness, perhaps rather than adding more materials the ones that are currently available should simply be put on a system of rotation throughout the herds. This does not necessarily foster inter herd relationships but it doesn't force herds to rely on them, and it also creates a more even playing field. Obviously some IC or maybe even SWP stuff would have to happen for that magic to be passed around season to season instead of assigned as the gods, and I know it's kind of a crazy idea, but it might have a chance of making things more fair. That way, the Aurora Basin isn't stuck making tapestries and the Edge isn't stuck making vials and trinkets while the Falls makes buildings and the DT makes weapons and armor. As Blu said, unless we ignore the natural properties of the Edge and Basin materials they aren't fit for such strong structures. Yes, the Basin can make tents and whatnot, but they also live in a very harsh windy cold area, realistically those would get ruined without some sort of enchantment. If things rotated, they would have just as much of a chance to create a stone structure/towers as the falls.

Thinking it through: even with trading, Falls crafters would have to give up all their slots (unlikely) go to the basin themselves (not super likely, or perhaps not even possible given territory specific magic, thinking about what Isopia said recently in a thread with Ampere) and then spend time there building something for a herd that isn't their own. I haven't ever seen a herd alliance go to that extent onsite.

So rotation would allow a fair playing field but not entirely abolish trading. Obviously if you want something sooner than it takes for the material to come back around to you, you'd have to work out a deal (though let's face it trading can be difficult for individual and particularly new players without things to trade to do given that most herds only craft for free within their herd, leaving others stuck--a waiting option would be good for this, then.) By rotating, all four herds also develop more slowly and at an even rate, since they all have the same opportunity but it's more spread out.

As much as I do love the idea of adding new materials, I do wonder if maybe a system like this could help without simply just throwing more things into the mix. And no matter how many new materials you give one herd, another's exclusive rights to craft one other will always be problematic. Plus there are individual crafting characters that can supply materials that aren't currently in the four herds, and they are fairly unlimited in their choices as far as I understand.

TLDR:

So, kind of a crazy idea and maybe not the direction you're looking for if you want to simulate realistic trading, but perhaps a possibility to create a more level playing field in the crafting world that would perhaps encourage it to be better utilized would be rotating herd materials. Obviously IC changes with gods or what have you would have to be made. Sorry that got long.

Maybe it could be a Herd Champion's prize to chose another herd's materials/trade with materials? Would perhaps also be interesting IC-wise as it would perhaps make or break an alliance.

My idea c;

Sort of along the lines of what Blu/Chan said earlier.. I AM PRO RESOURCES/DISASTERS and ILLNESSES

Something that happens within a herdland at random times in a herdland that makes the herd vulnerable/stronger or gives them an item(s) to be stolen/raided over/coveted. It's like this..characters who explore their territory can randomly discover a magical resource that only lasts a set amount of days before going away forever and ever...

EXAMPLE [as a random event]: You're skipping along happily in the Basin when you fall off the edge of a small mossy cliff and tumble down into the forest below and land softly on a bed of fluffy lichen. You find a glowing little hut with faeries buzzing cheerfully in an out and all around. They gather herbs and flowers and talk to the woodland creatures. "Come inside." They invite you in. They give you "___blank magical item/resource/WHATEVER___" and one kisses you on the nose and it all blinks away in a flash. Leaving you and your item alone amongst the quiet trees.

Or it could be the complete opposite and simply devastate a territory and leave them needing aid from another herdland blah blah blah

Hope that wasn't too unbearable. You get the point though <3 Also i would like to add that this is a herdland thing..so anything gained would be something involving/owned by everyone.I feel like this would be a good way to start wars and robberies and scandals all sorts of hellacious funtimes.



ps. i think the crafters should be told their limits. personally if i played a crafter i would go crazy with ideas and be threading left and right with random shit. i would even have a blast making absolute garbage things that are a failure project...just to do it, but i would be scared to go too far and perhaps have my character make something that is not allowed or something. Example: My character finds dwarves working in a cave and they give her a big, rough ruby and some silver ore to make a crown with and go from there..but would that sort of thing be permitted?


<33
psi

On the whole crafting thing, I am still somewhat in disagreement only because after being an AB crafter for a while, there are so many different things that you can do with cloth and glass that do count as stat boosting items.

Just because it's cloth doesn't mean that a cloak or an armor lining doesn't count as a defensive item - just no one has ever asked! Cloaks, even unenchanted, can count as defensive because it can take damage from earth attacks or fire, etc. Think of Aragorn's cloak in LOTR. It protected him from being set on fire and it was all holy from blocking his skin from 'splosians, etc.

Also, glass can be used to make arrows, pikes, and a slew of offensive items that are extremely dangerous because they can shatter! One of my ideas when I was applying for a crafting position in the Edge was to make glass spears that are offensive and break upon use - thus leaving glass shards in your enemies.

Similarly, the AB can make nets with cloth, which could be offensive too.

Rock isn't useful in making armor because it's so heavy, but then metal is also kinda limited because it's not malleable or heavy.

Honestly, I think if more people used their crafting more creatively and the crafters really make stuff, I would love to consider it more. But right now, it still seems like adding more complexity on top of an already convoluted thing wouldn't help anyone because the crafters are rarely used as it is.

So I think we should:
1. Release the crafting guide and give people clear guidelines
2. Leaders need to actually support/give permissions to their crafters so they can make this stuff without feeling like they would be doing the wrong thing
3. People need to get creative with the items being made and really think outside the box. AB are weavers... did you know kevlar is made out of spider silk??

No idea if this is ALREADY a thing but it woudl be cool to get alerts when there is a new SWP, drops, companions etc up for grabs?

I think one thing that could improve the desire to craft things would be for the herd as a whole to be counted as an owner. Right now, things that have been made available to a whole herd is either listed on a single character's record, or just hanging in the air. It might be mentioned occasionally because one player know that this item was made and offered to the herd in one thread, and then another player finds out about it and lets their character use them too but there aren't any official lists, records or other means of knowing what exists and what doesn't.

For example, Lace's dragon scale armor. He crafted the armor and gifted it to the World's Edge herd, to be used by a general in times of war. But it stayed in Lace's records anyway, it never got used despite being available during an invasion, and when he left the herd I had to transfer the item to Dragomir in order to keep the armor in the Edge.

I see the same things happening with items crafted by Kahlua. The Edge's secret board have a list with the things that's available for use, but it's buried by other threads, out of date and personally I don't know if it's really okay for me to pick up ex a basket and carry it around, maybe drop it, break it, actually play with it and incorporate it into my threads because, isn't it still the property of the character on who's list it's recorded?

A public record would make it much easier to make items and structures available and easily accessed. It wouldn't even have to be maintained by admin - the herd leaders already have responsibility over maintaining the herd pages; perhaps another ranked player can be given permission to maintain a record over the possessions of the herd, update it when the things are destroyed, repaired, stolen, replaced etc.

I think it would make it both more fun and more tempting to create things, because you would know that they will be seen, used, looked at and appreciated.

I'll make an example of a list too, just for the heck of it;

----------------------------------------------------------

A Herd's Possession Legend

Buildings:

:: Defensive wall - built by Abcede, Ihjikle - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link to threads as proof)
[Note: N/A]
:: Church - built by Abcede - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: N/A]
:: Greenhouses - built by Abcede, Efghe, Ihjikle - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: N/A]
:: Library - built by Abcede, Efghe - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: N/A]

Large Items:

:: Cart - built by Abcede - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: Need repair, no magic required ]

Medium items:

:: 5 glass lanterns - built by Abcede - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: 1 lantern was chipped during this event, need repair by Glazier (link)]

Small items:

:: 10 library books - built by Restuve - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: Traded from B Herd in BS 4 (link)]
:: 25 Gate keys - built by Abcede - last maintained 2/2-00 (FF year 6) - (Link)
[Note: distributed to (link), (link), (link), (link), (link), (link), (link), (link), (link), (link)]

------------------------------------

People can link references too, maybe sketches and quick maps over the location of the building/item. Eventually items will develop histories of their own, characters might steal them for the honor of wearing the same armor as, say, three consecutive kings of the Basin. Herds could have their own magical items - books with secrets, enchanted tents, an amulet that summons the herd God in a time of great need - etc.

These things already exist, but I find it hard to keep track of everything that's built, there's currently no easy way to go back and check what the description was, what the location looked like, who built it.

This way things will remain even if an invasion takes place, the new regime can't simply ignore everything that was built before, you can see how and why things are constructed and it's easy to keep track of who made what, where it is, when things will expire, what the magic ranks need to do and what other crafters/volunteers can help out with. If things break, they will need to be repaired, replaced, which will stimulate more crafting, more need for resources, more interaction etc.


Mainly, items made for the entire herd won't be filling up space in a character's records. I think this might help now that we have a character item limit - I personally wouldn't want to fill my item slots with things meant for the whole herd. It wouldn't be fair - the crafter suddenly can't have a magic dagger, a pen that writes itself and a nifty hat because they need to carry the herds basket, the herds lanterns, and so on.

Public records could also give the stealth ranks more to do - maybe herd A has a really nice toolkit that herd B wants; they steal it, use it to create a telescope for academic studies; herd C finds out about it, steals the telescope and uses it to invade herd A - but herd A wins, and forces herd C to hand over the telescope as a peace offering. Then herd C comes back, demanding the item to be returned, and off we go again.

Herd relations are stimulated, and no one is hampered by absent players/aa'd characters because the things belong to the -herd- and kept available to everyone.



Idk, it's just an idea but right now I'm very fond of it. x3 and man this got long... sorry for rambling. Oh and I'm really looking forward to the crafting guide! I think it will make things a lot easier to wrap your head around. :D

I'm on my phone so can't get a comprehensive reply out - but herds do own items, and those lists are publicly available!

For instance the basins sentinels, the edges wall, the dt arena, the falls prison cells and Isos hut, etc.

You just have to let the admins know so we can update it!

well look at that. Chan has been blind for 68464 years. well 4 at least. Good to know there are people with functioning eyes around. Gosh, I feel embarrassed.

Haha, well clearly it was a good idea! Lots of people just don't make use of it ^^

as i've noticed, and maybe some of you have too, but Helovia's same sex couple/gay/etc population is slowly increasing.

what this means is some of these couples/chars may be seeking children, but what's unfortunate for them is they will not be able to do so without a quest. meanwhile a hetero couple will have absolutely no trouble whatsoever in reproducing.

i get that that's the "natural" way and all that jazz, but this is a magical world with flying magic wielding horses. i'm sure that somehow same sex couples can produce offspring without having to go on a quest from a god. it could easily be replaced by just accepting it and allowing same sex couples to magically reproduce, which isn't much of a stretch. but if not, perhaps a prize that just grants them the ability temporarily. i just thought i'd bring this up.

Hello Dark!

Thank you for your concern, but the admin are firm on this aspect of the game. We do strive for, as much as possible, realism in a few key aspects of the game. This includes battling, injuries, disease/illness, fallibility, species limitations (ie gliding only rules for non-pegs), breeding and other things! For example, mares must be pregnant for "x" amount of time and are vulnerable while pregnant, and their foals can be killed if they fight. Also, hybrid characters have an extremely high death rate for children, which is also an example of how we keep birth natural! These are just a few examples of the ways we strive for realism.

Since birthing happens naturally and without god intervention, we are firm on the position that only opposite sex (not gender) couples can conceive just as in the real world. This is not a gender/bias issue against same sex couples but an aspect of the game that we prefer to keep realistic. The gods can and do allow same sex characters to conceive a child though, since they can alter the natural world, and usually these quests are very romantic and sweet in nature!

The admin believe that a little extra work isn't a bad thing when it comes to break the mold in the game!

Just throwing this out there, not sure if it has already been discussed:

Items which cannot be stolen.

I could write forever the reasons I feel there should be a blanket rule of, 2 items on you character's records are deemed 'safe' from stealing (challenging for them is fine though), however I thought I would just throw the idea out there first and see what everyone thinks about it.

Or an automatic/quest-able third enchantment magical trace which lets you know who is in possession of your shit. xP Only works with original owners, though...

We have talked about this at length.

Ultimately, we've just decided that having unstealable items doesn't make sense. Even magical items - like Confutatis' armor which was infused into her skin - could be stolen, because as it is, only things like magic and a companion bond are an intrinsic/inherent part of your character. Everything else is quite literally an accessory/is external.

We also realize that part of the motivation for unstealable items is, "Yeah but, I don't want this to be taken :( :( :( :(" but that's sort of a necessary evil/fun of the game. Maybe you disagree, but it is something that we've talked about at length multiple times. If this isn't a good enough explanation/justification, let me know and I can elaborate!

As for the tracing magic Neo, Blu has brought that one up a bunch too. But it's PP/MP any way that you look at it, unfortunately.

Things being challenged for makes more sense to me - Confu's armour was challenged for and it made sense for it to be taken off her in that regard.

I'm more meaning, items that are specifically given to a char as a reward for their activity. Example: Mauja's staff, Cera's armour, etc. Why have these events at all, if they can just be stolen, thus removing the 'special'-ness of the event, the reward for the activity, etc?

I understand that sometimes these events give out, for example, companions, or magic, which aren't steal-able by nature - couldn't the same be applied for items given out in this fashion?

I understand what you're saying. But that's an OOC reason, in a way. Like the special-ness of getting something is special to you, and has OOC connotations (Mauja for 1000 posts, etc). But IC, it's still just an item. And because it's an item, it can be taken from you. I mean, I could see Moony being pissed if she saw someone else with Mau's staff and knew that they stole it or something like that, but there's no IC reason that it wouldn't be stealable.

And ostensibly, one would expect clever characters who know of Mau's enchanted staff to be wary of the Goddess getting pissed if they messed with it. OR, of Mauja's launching a full assault should someone steal it and getting all of Helovia involved to getting it back.

So while yes, you worked hard and were rewarded with something, that in itself isn't a reason that you should be exempt from the rules of the game, i.e. still being able to have your things taken.

Hello!
Coming to you with an idea discussed among some sleuths that I think could help the current stealth system. :)
At the moment you obviously cannot steal from just anyone because that leads to complications between herds and generally while drama is freaking fab, its not exactly ideal if you don't have a splendid army or what not to back your herd up!
So outcasts are focussed on obviously, HOWEVER right now it seems like every single stealth gets blocked automatically by every active outcast if even its only one line/word that looks a whiff like their charrie.
For example my last stealth, only one of the lines they guessed right- the rest were wrong lmao but still they blocked themselves.

THE PROPOSAL; A limit on outcast guesses per month.
Be it 1, 2 or 3 per month or whatever number that seems fair - just the fact that you cannot endlessly block, and that you must choose what you block wisely.
There are limits to herd guesses, why not outcasts?

I guess the snag is reccord keeping, but my proposal to keep an eye on it would be similar to how we keep an eye on dates for spars?
When we post a stealth have a look at all the stealths the past month to the date and under the herd guesses list the outcasts who cannot block for that particular stealth - this would be up to the sneak rank to work out and not admin.  It would get confusing if someone changed to/from a herd to outcast where they would get extra guesses so thats another snag i guess. any ideas?