Myrddin, who could not see Sin carefully hiding his emotions as he pondered the philosopher's words, merely waiting patiently for a response. There was a Philosopher once, who, if given the chance, might have argued that there was no reason to believe the sun would rise tomorrow. Our only evidence to suggest that it would rise, is simply the experience of our senses. We have experienced things in a certain way, and ignorantly and selfishly believe that they will continue to remain as we have seen them. But there is no casual relationship, between what we have experienced, and what will happen. When Myrddin first his this idea explained to him, it struck his mind so forcefully, that he could do nothing but ponder it for days. It had almost immediately turned him into a skeptic, a trait that he had not lost; one that he was testing his students on, at this very moment.

As Sin finally did answer, he laughed heartily and nodded. "Very good, young Zikar-Sin. Wise are those who understand the limitations of their knowledge, and are willing to admit such. Your answers have excluded you from having to complete the final portion of this challenge. I am pleased. Would you like to move onto your final and most difficult challenge yet? Should you agree, this will be your final challenge before becoming a Disciple of the Basin."

Turning, his large moose-like ears focused on Chernobyl. It was almost amazing that he could hear anything, given his old age and the abundance of hair which protruded from his ears. Nevertheless, Chernobyl was standing close enough, and his senses were no so far gone that they were giving him problems yet. Perhaps you may be able to give me an example of this cold-hearted creature that derives happiness from another’s pain?He paused thoughtfully for a moment, trying to decide how best to answer her question which would make the most amount of sense to her. Her mind was still young, and hadn't seemed to have grasped all of the complexities that philosophical inquiry required. Still, he was appreciative of her efforts, and her attempt to clarify. "As I said before, there is no inherent good or evil in the world. These terms are simply things we smear onto our environment, based on how they make us feel. Cute little foals are good, and icky crawly spiders are bad. However there is no inherent trait in either, that should make them so. So, in saying that our example needs to be of a cold-hearted creature, is a mistake. Let me explain: That which causes us pleasure, or pain, is merely a function of how our brains interpret certain signals. So, if one's brain were, through no fault of their own, were to interpret murderous acts as pleasurable, then they would simply intuit them as being good, the same way that you would interpret a pleasant sunrise, as good. However, to fully answer your question, I would say the Goddess of the Moon might be a prime example of one who takes pleasure in the pain and discomfort of others."

Flicking his tail, he pondered whether this answer was satisfactory. Deciding that he believed it to be, he continued to answer the remainder of her questions. If you were to see again…would it not make you happy?. Myrddin shook his ancient and weathered head. "No Chernobyl, it would not. If I regained my sight, what would that do? Allow me to traverse Helovia? Surely it would - but how would the merely seeing a land cause me happiness? Because I could see you? Is there something inherent in you, or anyone else, that would be enough to cause me happiness, simply by being?" He paused, beginning to feel frustrated by her questions. Taking a deep breath, he exhaled slowly, righting himself. He needed her to be clear on what the issue was, and he felt she was missing it.

"Chernobyl, I have asked you what happiness is, and you've replied that it is something worth seeking. But you have not answered what it is. Is the way to be happy to lead a good life? And what is that? Is in hedonistic, in the sense that one should seek pleasure, and avoid pain? Or is it a state of mind?That one could be happy, regardless of outside influences. In which case, regaining my eyesight should have nothing to do with my level of happiness. But if it did, then it would seem that my circumstances directly affect my happiness. However, I do not choose my circumstances; they are merely a product of decisions that I had made in the past, and those decisions in turn, are based on more decisions. Is enlightennment a way to happiness, or does ultimate happiness lead to enlightenment? Is there a state of being 'absolutely happy' that all should strive for? Is it measurable? Subjective?" He looked at her as kindly as his blind eyes would allow, lowering his head closer to her height. "You must be careful Chernobyl, as you train to be a disciple, to have a full grasp on the words that you use. Happiness, is something which is spoken of often, yet is not so easy to pin down and understand. I would have you remember that. "

Answer me this, what exactly are you striving towards in this life? "Why absolutely nothing. My life is merely an open-ended epistemic question. I believe we are like computers, in a sense. My body, species, gender, is all hardware. I cannot change it, it was a function of my heritage. My mind, emotions, thoughts, are like my software. However, the way I have come to be who I am today, is a function of the differing situations I have found myself in, all along my long life. From the moment I was born, the outcome of my life was fixed, for every decision I have ever made, and will ever make, is based on a specific and fixed set of variables, which could produce only one outcome. Although it feels like I am choosing as I go, I am merely unraveling the thread of my life, as it was always meant to be. So you ask what I am striving towards? I tell you again, that the answer is nothing. If I am aiming at anything, it has already been determined, and so there is nothing to strive towards, for I will inevitably reach it. "

Again, he patiently listened to her as she worked in her own mind ideas about normativity. Wouldn't that make them broad enough to apply to those across the continent? Myr nodded, Yes. That's exactly the point He thought with amusement. What one would consider to be certain about, another could disagree, as you’ve done here. "NO" His gruff voice boomed. Myr's antlered brow rose quickly as a look of anger and frustration rolled across his faded visage. "No, no no! If one is certain about a thing, by definition they cannot be wrong. Certainty is objective, and correct, regardless of anyone's feelings about it. So, if you cannot properly defend your certain beliefs of something, and convince another of its truth, assuming they are not being dogmatic, then you do not possess the knowledge that you think you do." Myrddin's tail snapped as his blind eyes rose towards the sky. The question of knowledge, was the dearest to his old heart, and he was often frustrated and irked by those who would dogmatically or ignorantly disagree. While surely Chernobyl was doing neither on purpose, he couldn't hide his frustration.

"The world is the same for everyone. Simply because some choose to see it in different ways, to brand things as ugly, or lesser, does not make it so. This world is not a democracy. Ideals, morals and values should not be chosen simply because they appeal to the greater number, or to those in power. There are objective facts in this world, that hold regardless of how you feel about them, and will remain true long after your body has rotted into the ground." Sighing, his anger fading now, he lowered his head once again, speaking more evenly. "Disagreement is the beauty of philosophy Chernobyl. While of certain things, there can be no disagreement, I concur that of other matters, there can be an abundance of disagreement. What you must learn to do, is to be able to thoughtfully justify your position based on more than simply how things feel to you, or how they seem to you."

Yes, sir, I would very much like to further my instruction

Myrddin nodded, carefully pondering what to test young Sikar-Sin with next. Suddenly, an old lesson returned to his mind, which caused a toothy smile to break across his muzzle.

"Listen carefully youngling. You may take all the time that you need to answer. Imagine if you will a great ship, we'll call her Susan Delgado. This ship is so frequently out at sea, that Lace and the other crafters, must constantly repair her boards, sails, and masts. Not wanting to waste these pieces, as they might have some later use, the crafters carefully store each and every piece. Enough time has passed, that the crafters have in fact replaced each and every piece of the Susan Delgado, although the design has never once been altered. One of the apprentice crafters, to perfect his skill, has been playing with the old pieces of the ship, and has used them to build his own Susan Delgado, using only original pieces.

I ask of you Zikar-Sin, If you were to place the Susan Delgado created by the apprentice, next to the ship that Lace and the other crafters have been carefully maintaining, and I asked you to point out the true Susan Delgado, which would you choose, and why?"

Ah yes. Myr thought, quite pleased with this final challenge.

[OOC: Sin can ask as many clarifying questions as he likes. ]

Myrddin waited dutifully as Chernobyl paused before replying. Did she feel that he was cross with her? He had raised his voice...but surely she understood that it was the subject matter that had riled him, and not her? Even so, his emotion shouldn't have flared as it did. Chernobyl certainly seemed more sensitive than he was, and may in fact have taken his tone of voice to heart. Idly, he flicked his tail wondering about how such an emotional creature perceived philosophical issues. No doubt an intuitionist he mused. Myrddin was a creature of objectivity, however, there were those who found strength in intuitive reasoning. For them, it was enough that something seemed to be the case, even if there was evidence to the contrary. This was apparent in how Chernobyl phrased her response, beginning with, Happiness to me....

"Chernobyl. You and I will come to intersections of thought. If you and I are to continue, you must learn to disagree with me in an appropriate and philosophical manner. I welcome thoughts contrary to my own, for they demonstrate to me whether or not I am able to accurately justify my points against someone who takes an opposing stance. You must learn to do the same. The line you must walk is as fine one, between advocating for what you believe, and knowing when you may be in error."

At that, he would comment no more on her views on happiness.

"If you accept these conditions, we shall continue."

I would lick both ships...

Peals of hearty and gruff laughter erupted from the blind stag as Sin hazarded a wayward attempt at an answer. Salt content? he mused. Such a practical answer to a philosophical question. "Should you like the ships, Zikar-Sin, you would return to me with a mouthful of slivers and be no closer to an answer, than when you began." Thinking of Sin returning, mouth swollen and full of wood, brought a new round of cackles from the unicorn. Tears oozed out of his milky white eyes, and Myrddin absently noted that apparently the magic which had blinded him, had left his tear-ducts unaffected.

Finally catching his breath, he tossed his head slightly, shaking his forelock from his eyes. Although he had no need to, the habit of removing things from one's eyes was still ingrained within him. This was Sin's final challenge, before attaining the rank of Disciple, and Myr hesitated to give him a clue, as he had done with previous challenges. If he could not prove himself now, what was the use of promoting him to something he wasn't ready for? Still, clarification might be in order.

"The ship has been at sea continuously. Only docking long enough for repairs to be made. These repairs, are of the sort any ship would require - rotten boards, broken masts, torn sails. Imagine that this process took two years, at which time, the Susan Delgado had been completely replaced, and the old pieces collected and put together again. " Flicking his tail, he paused thoughtfully, fearing that Sin was possibly looking at this the wrong way. "Think of this not as a practical question, youngling. At the heart, this is a question of personal identity, of how a thing can persist through time. "

[OOC: There is more clarification Myr can give, if necessary :3 ]

[OOC: Oh yes, it's fine ^^; I know this problem inside and out :P]

Myr was truly beginning to like this youngling. His mind seemed…deep. There was a depth and longevity there, that interested the old white stag. While he surely needed more training, more practise, he certainly seemed to show the makings of quite a fine philosopher. Psyche had done well to allow this unicorn into her ranks.I wonder what he thinks of Psyche's recruiting criteria..? He pondered, mentally storing that question for a more private and less professional conversation.

"I accept your answer, young Sikar-Sin, yet I would leave you with a word of advice. Be careful how often you hedge your answers. Although there is merit in being able to understand both sides of an argument, and finding valid points, you must also have enough of a philosophical foundation to know which argument sits best with the totality of your beliefs. You have given the answer of 'both', to my original question, but consider this: Your body replaces the totality of your cells, at least every 7 years. Imagine, that upon your 7th birthday, the God's replicated you out of all of those old cells. Surely you would want to make the argument that you, are the correct you? And yet, given your statement here, you would be unable to do that."

Tossing his old head, he looked away from where he assumed Sin to be, indicating he was not looking for a retort to this lesson. Flaring his nostril as he exhaled, he nodded to himself, before turning back to Sin. "Go forth, Sikhar-Sin, with the rank of Disciple." Myr said, with a note of pride in his gruff voice.

Was Chernobyl throwing a temper tantrum? Without being able to view the look on her features, it was difficult to discern her emotional state. All his large moose-like ears detected was the sound of her hoof striking the rock, and an ambiguous grunt. Nevertheless, her voiced opinion was that she wanted to continue. Myrddin, who was not one to dwell on the unsaid, merely shrugged. If she had something to say about his teachings, she ought to say it. "Defy me all you like child, only be prepared that I shall challenge you on each word that comes out of your mouth." He replied with amusement. He couldn't help but shake the feeling that Chernoybl seemed to take everything so personally. They would have to work on that.

"Your final challenge is again a riddle, but a simple one. How many times can you subtract 5 from 100?"

Patiently, the Haruspex flicked his tail, awaiting a reply. Would Chernobyl again think he was tricking her, as she surely must of with her first problem, a paradox? If she was going to be a philosopher - and a Haruspex one day - she must learn to trust herself, and not be sullied by her past impressions of others.

[OOC:Will change the table once I'm home...]

With a grunt of approval, Myr nodded his ancient and weathered skull. Chernobyl had answered promptly and quite correctly. His little chicks were growing up so fast. "Correct, Chernobyl. You have done well, and have surpassed my expectations of you. Can you not see, how in such a short time, how quickly your mind is growing? I am pleased. Leave me now as a Disciple of the Aurora Basin. "

Myrddin flicked his long tail and turned away from both Chernobyl and Sin. Riddling with them had taxed his body, and his joints cried out with pain. The arthritic snake who curled around his bones had grown restless due to the time Myr has spent standing - and was moving freely and with an icy-hotness through his body. Muttering to himself about how dying would be far easier than continuing day after day in this decrepit body, he began to walk in the direction of the hot springs, seeking the soothing warmth of the naturally occurring watery bath.

He would seek out Psyche after his bath, and discuss the future of his little lambs. Although the next hierarchical rank for them was to succeed him, Myr was sure there was much they could contribute to the Basin before that was to happen. More than likely he would die before one of them possessed the mental capacity to usurp him. Still, perhaps Psyche had plans for them?

[OOC: I'll discuss with Rayo what the next steps for you two are ^^ Thanks for playing!]

To go on is to go through.
At last, even the seer is cremated.
Each seed loves the dark for the light it promises.